It's true.

No, it's not true. When I think of RPG I think of leveling up and building characters by distributing stat and skill points into which path you wish your character to excel. In example, if you want a caster of some sort you throw points into Intelligence, and if you want a strong melee-type character you throw points into Strength.

Another essential RPG element is gear changing. In RPG's, changing your equipment means something. Headgear, shoulder pads, capes, chest armours, leg armours, boots, enchanted rings and necklaces, and even sometimes earrings, make a huge difference in RPG's. Real adventure games, like Zelda, only have a few gear changes, because gear isn't as important in an Adventure game.

You know which game I believe to not be a proper RPG but sells itself as one? Mass Effect 2. Please... It's a genuine TPS with a TINY amount of borrowed RPG elements. You can't call a game an RPG just because you can create a character with a different face and hairstyle than other players. Give me a break.

You just described Sorority Life for facebook.

Edit: And apparently, never played Mass Efect.

You don't get it. He's not talking about what people's warped definition of an RPG is. He is talking about the actual acronym itself. Role-Playing Games are games in which you play a role, make choices, develop your own destiny. In FFXIII, you don't change anything by your choices (maybe except the amount of time it takes you to beat it).

I strongly disagree Venin, as far as I can tell the definition of a RPG is that you play a role in a game, Role Playing Game. Which would involve all games with a main character and thus rendering the entire term useless. So the term should be narrowed down a bit, I'd say to a game that lets you choose a role and play it. FF doesn't let you choose a role, it barely lets you choose how to play the role it gives you. I'll admit that some of Biowares latest games are on thin ice when it comes to this definition, but in the end it's just a definiton. They are games, we play them, we have fun. I just wasted a minute of my life writing this post and I feel really bad about doing so, I could have been having fun :P

Actually, he has a very good point. It does not have all the usual characteristics of RPG's. An interractive movie might be a better description...with a "J" in front of it.

FFXIII isn't an RPG, really. But I hope he's not attacking the other Final Fantasies. Living your character doesn't necessarily mean making a wide variety of choices for him or her.

Also I find Bioware's arrogance a little funny. They actually believe their games AREN'T getting worse and worse, just like the FF series.

Also they keep talking about Baldur's Gate...almost like they know that it's still better than anything else they've made.

Venin, just because you have the wrong definition of RPG in your head, doesn't mean that anyone who is right about it is not true.

Final Fantasy 13 is not an RPG, its a turn base adventure game with secondary RPG elements.

Dungeons and Dragons is the father of all RPGs and the RPG stands for Role Playing Game. Mass Effect, despite making your character Commander Shepard, still lets you customise their backstory, their looks and their choices. FF13 doesn't let you do any of this at all, thus entirely failing on the primary definition of RPG.

All FF13 has is secondary elements.

WRPGs are the only actual RPG games as they actually fit the definition of the first RPG game, JRPGs only fit the lesser definitions of the genre.

Before you go on a little rant disagreeing with something, make sure you actually know what you are disagreeing with, especially when it is defined for you in the article

Bioware are just annoyed that their "true" RPGs have all been outsold by FF13. Nothing to see here folks, just unprofessional lashing out.

Hmmm, looks like we've been hit by a lot FF gamers.

Yeah lots of traffic on this piece. Good to see you all people. A fiery discussion?

Good to see. Have at it guys.

@ Tomorrowsnobody

If you look at why he said it you can see that it was because the interviewer used FF13 as an example of a game that focuses on story over gameplay while calling FF13 an RPG.

Bioware weren't annoyed by anything (its stupid to think that someone in their position could hope to make an RPG that gets millions of sales no matter how bad it is). There was no unprofessional behaviour or any lashing out.

They were just stating a fact, if anything your post reflects someone who is annoyed and lashing out

@Aleitheo

Just because you don't actually create your own character's background and choices doesn't mean you aren't still playing the role of a character. As long as you're given a main character with a story and a path to take, you will be playing a role.

BUT, if we're even going to use RPG as an actual gaming genre, then my definition of it is the ONLY right one. There is no other reason to use "RPG" to define a game. I get that RPG stands for Role-playing game, but every single game has you playing the role of at least one character, so that's a really dumb way of looking at it. If you're going to stick with your dumb definition for RPG then we might as well scrap the whole thing altogether.

Honestly, though, I wish we could leave "RPG" to games like Dungeons and Dragons and stop using it for anything that even remotely resembles it, and come up with a new genre for everything else. It would keep everything more organized and end pointless arguments like these forever.

@Venin
"Honestly, though, I wish we could leave "RPG" to games like Dungeons and Dragons and stop using it for anything that even remotely resembles it,..."
I couldn't agree more, as this was where it all began, and really should stay.
However, in this growing and ever changing gaming world genres are mixing ("Dawn of War II", for eg.), mutating and becoming more difficult to define. Games likewise are harder to categorise. Action is mixing with RPG, which is mixing with RTS, which is then becoming embroiled with FPS's (any squad-based shooter, where tactics are far more important than a quick trigger finger).
Soon Indie games may well become Arthouse, and RPG will encompass many games that previously wouldn't have been considered. When does a shooter become an RPG instead, for example ("Fallout 3")?

I definately agree.

Don't be rediculous an rpg is defined by a game that fits under a spectrum of sub categories, because the term RPG is just too vague. JRPG, Western RPG, MMORPG and pen and paper rpg. Of course there are dozens more new one's but when u say RPG u have to take those 4 core RPGs into consideration. If a game fits under one of those categories then it is in fact an RPG. Don't come try to run this rubbish that FFXIII can fit into any other category more than it could fit into RPG. I mean i agree completely that it was linear, but it is still what it is.

Rofl, gotta love all the WRPG fanboys who seem to think that being an RPG requires you to create a character.
Bioware being especially bad considering there last game was just a shooter with tacked on RPG elements.

Sorry to take sides, but I don't think that's a real good way of dealing with newcomers Hero, we should be encouraging them to stay and post, rather than threatening them just because they are passionate about something (regardless of whether we agree with their opinion, which for the record.. I don't). Whatever happened to healthy debate?

Yeah lets leave them at it Herod. PM'd you. Don't see anything bad at people coming and posting something. As long as members aren't choking each other it's all fine. :p

So new members, there will be no ban hammers. No worries.

Lets keep it simple then. Since everyone is using the definition of RPG (Role playing game).
In both FFXIII and MassEffect, you are controlling someone. Therefore, there is a role. Since there is a story, then you are "Playing that role". And since this is for entertainment value, this is a "Game". Since FFXIII was made by Japanese (aka. "J"). Then it is a legitimate JRPG. Likewise, under such definitions, Mass Effect is a WRPG (Western Role Playing Game). No need to get irritated. You should not care what each person has to think about your favourite game. All that matters is that "YOU" have enjoyed it. If you go worrying about everyone's opinion, there would be no end.

I am basing the definition of RPG off the very first RPG and the very elements of it that define it.

WRPGs are mostly the only actual RPGs since they are the only ones that let you create your own character and take your own path and choices in the world. Most JRPGs these days give you a predefined character and don't really allow you to make many choices. You aren't playing a role at all.

To people like warmaster who think we are WRPG fanboys just because we are not defending FF13 is ridiculous. If I were a fanboy of anything it would be of JRPGs as I play more of them than I do of WRPGs (which is just Oblivion, Fable and Mass Effect)

The problem with this whole argument is that JRPG fans are taking offence to their preferred genre of games being called out as incorrectly labelled, as if this somehow means that the genre is bad.

When I used to listen to some music before and incorrectly thought they were the wrong genre, when someone corrected me on this I didn't take offence, I used the correct definition from then on.

So to the people who dislike this article because of what Biowares Erikson said, realise that he is right and he wasn't insulting you or what you like at all.

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@ Herod

I've joined many forums whenever I come across a discussion I wish to take part in and stay for a while. Threats of banning for being "disruptive" is not a positive for new members.
As for not filling out our user info, we only just joined and were taking part in what has been a bit of a heated discussion on many parts of the internet.

Erickson is right.

With FFXIII, the player is a spectator. No choices can be made the alter the course of any part of the game. You watch a movie and have turn-based battles in between.

But the thing to remember here is that Square-Enix themselves do not consider FFXIII an RPG. So anyone screaming from the rooftops that FFXIII is any RPG is a fanboy in a denial who is out of touch with makers of their beloved game themselves.

@onetimeposter

If you're going to make that comparison, in a game like Mass Effect, you take on a role and guide that character through the game. In FFXIII, you momentarily see the world from a character's point of view, and then that character changes, and so does the point of view, and then again, and again. You never choose the role, and you never play that role. You also never really do any guiding of said character. You're given a hallway and you walk through.

It's tough to have a legitimate RPG with so little choice involved. But again, Square-Enix themselves do not consider FFXIII an RPG.

good fun, more american bullshit

dungeons and dragons created rpgs.

rpg - Role Playing Game
in final fantasy 13, you play multiple roles, you increase stats, you fight monsters

bioware: "oh hurr durr, its linear"

lots of linear rpgs.

final fantasy 13 is an rpg, its a terrible game, but it IS an rpg

FFXIII has character advancement. You go up levels, you get new moves as you advance, there's even a relatively thorough weapon advancement system. Apparently the game being linear means none of that other stuff matters though.

Re: AD&D RPGs. Most people who play AD&D did not play in a totally "open-ended" world. Most of the time, a "module" would be purchased that contains a story, puzzles, set piece battles, etc., but the most important thing was that you purchased a STORY, a context in which your characters would interact with. The reason that very few of the games I played were totally open-ended were that most people aren't that good at creating stories and scenarios that are both fun and balanced for play. Of course, in a real game, the Dungeon Master does have to be able to improvise, adlib, and do some story creation on the fly, but it's still always within the framework provided the module. Modules will also usually provide characters for you to play if you're not inclined to create your own characters, or if your existing characters from other games would be too unbalanced in the current module.

So, my point is... FF XIII does fit into the mold of the AD&D philosophy... it's just that compared to something like Baldur's Gate, it's like playing with a Dungeon Master who's really picky about deviating from the module, i.e. you can't deviate much at all.